Disclaimer: this post is not meant to be a discussion about whether there is, or is not a God. Nor is it a debate on whether you - or anyone - should or should not be a Christian.
And, this post isn’t EXACTLY about the Virginia Tech shootings. Because honestly? We all know there isn’t anything more that needs to be said.
This post is, however, about some stupid ass shit that should NOT have been said. And I don’t have a quote to link to, or even the exact words that piss me off. So, bear with me.
Earlier this week my husband was listening to a talk radio show. And, of course, 99.9% of the discussion was about the Virginia Tech shootings. It’s a call in show - which guarantees you’re going to get a lot of absolute bullshit mixed in with a few gems. And this woman calls in to give her “take” on things. Which was, basically, that this tragedy was obviously a sign that God was pissed.
Yep. That’s right. The shootings at Virginia Tech are the act of a pissed off God because we humans keep fucking everything up. Taking prayer out of schools. Letting all those homos run around and get married. Shit, do you know some places in the south even let darkies sit next to good clean white people?*
*I may be paraphrasing here. But I’m pretty sure I’m getting her point across.
Fuck. That right there is why people hate Christians. Seriously. What in the HELL are people like that THINKING??? Usually these are the same people running around trying desperately to “evangelize” and save everyone they know. Does common sense not tell them that people are not going to be falling all over themselves to get closer to a pissed off God who zaps people when they are bad? I mean seriously people - Marketing 101 here.
But that’s not what pissed me off so badly. What pisses me off is women like this hijacking my religion and getting it terribly, terribly wrong.
#1 - If you profess to be a Christian, than you believe that God is not running around punishing people. There is nothing - NOTHING - that we could do that would be so bad to warrant torture and punishment. And do you know WHY? Come on.. Christians… stand up… raise your hands…
JESUS, people! No. Really. That’s the answer.
The whole POINT of Christianity is the idea that people kept fucking up the Old Covenant and so Jesus came to redeem us - once and for all. Once. And. For ALL, people. Not up to a certain point. Not for everyone except the gays and the whores and the Yankees and the liberals. Not until we got too bad for our own good. You cannot, by definition, be a Christian AND believe that God swoops down and punishes us every once in a while when we get out of hand.
So, there’s that.
And #2 - as people, we think death is bad. I mean, duh. We fear it. We try to avoid it. We hate the impact that it leaves on our lives. That’s normal.
But, logically speaking here, do you really think that God thinks that death is the worst thing that can happen to someone?
Again, as Christians, where do we say people go when they die? Anyone? Anyone? Yes, Johnny, the six year old in the back…. what’s that?
HEAVEN. Exactly. Freaking DUH.
Oh, and Johnny, before you sit back down, who lives in Heaven? Yes, yes, grandma… and your kitty, and grandpa and… whose that? Oh yes, that’s right. JESUS. And GOD. (and, bonus points if you’re Catholic… Mary!!)
Now, come on. Let’s keep our thinking caps on for a minute. If GOD thinks Heaven is, ya know, an OK place to hang His hat for the next Eternity Or So Years… does it make sense that he would see it as the ultimate punishment for being very bad boys and girls? Of course not.
And, yeah, death causes us suffering here. Lots, and lots, and lots of suffering. It’s horrific and sad and can leave an emptiness and aching inside those of us who are left like nothing else. But as Christians, we’re supposed to view death as the doorway to something more. Nay, more than something “more”. It’s supposed to be The Ultimate. The Cherry on the top of the Life Sundae. And while we are ALWAYS trying to balance the sadness with the hope, and while that is constantly a struggle for most of us… we’re certainly not supposed to be looking at death as the ultimate Fuck You.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I am NOT at ALL saying that one human being taking another human being’s life is anything short of abominable. I mean, Heaven is supposed to be great and all but I think the job of Gatekeeper and Valet are already taken, thank you very much. In fact, I do recall something about Thou Shalt Not Go Around Killing Other People.
What I AM saying is that when something like that happens, it is absolutely ludicrous to use it as a tool to start brow beating people into fearful submission.
And, so, OK, people have a right to be ludicrous. And stupid. And, even, fucking ignorant. And usually that’s not enough to make it to my blog.
But when you start hijacking my faith? When you start running off at the mouth in such a way that you give Christians everywhere a bad name? When you start spouting such blasphemous shit that you make people run like… well… hell from the Church and the Bible and even God Himself?
Well that, bitch, is simply unacceptable.
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Posted in Serious Discussions - Politics, Religion, Society
One of my professors said something like “Well, you know…our God is a jealous God. He must be upset with the way things are being done.”
WTF?
This is one of the many reasons that I stay away from religion…it’s followers are too screwed up.
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It’s amazing that when you take the fundamentalist elements of every religion, they all sound alike, from Muslim to Christian to Hindi. Instead of love, love, love, it’s all hate, hate hate. And since they are sometimes the most outspoken elements for that religion, it makes it seem like everyone is like that.
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All I can say is, “Amen, sista!”
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Well said.
I refuse to comment when the caller is so blatantly ignorant.
Let’s just all try to heal….
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*applauds, loudly*
Preach on!
And…if God “hates” the “Homos” and “coloreds” then why did he make them in the first place? Hmmm?
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Bravo!! I hate the kind of Christians you described. So much so that I have a hard time even talking to self proclaimed Christians. But, I LOVE you Catholics! LOVE! You all have an awesome outlook that I can really get behind. I don’t practice any religion but I do enjoy learning about and being friends with Catholics. You all seem to keep it real unlike most other Christians.
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This reminds me of a theologian debate I once had with one of the Monsignor’s of whether or not the Old Testament, which is the cornerstone of both Muslims and Christianity seeing as how Abraham technically is the father of both religions, which is full of the angry wrathful God was really Satan in disguise or if the current Christian/Muslim doctrine is in fact Satan’s handiwork to lure the people away from the One true God.
Aside from the fact that he was later brought up on molestation charges… I tend to think the conclusion that God had given us the rules and free will, and what we do with it is up to us, is generally the truth when fundamentalists try to impose this great fear.
That is… if there is indeed a God… and if there is indeed a Satan… or are they also one in the same?
Good post though… especially the part about pointing out that the fundamentalists make people run from faith.
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I hate how people use religion as an excuse to hate and kill.
I’m not a religious person, I don’t know what to believe, but I do know that if there is a God, that he wouldn’t be the reason behind all the bad shit going on in the world.
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This post creates a fantastic opportunity to poke you with a stick. But why would I want to do that?
If we assume the existence of a supreme being, a divine creator (an assumption I challenge… but that’s a whole ‘nother discussion), then I believe that creator would be an entity beyond our understanding. Amoeba are to humans as humans are to God, only considerably more so. Just as we don’t concern ourselves with the affairs of amoeba, I don’t see how the God who lit suns and set them in motion like the cogs and springs of a divine cosmic watch would be at all interested in whether or not boys are kissing other boys.
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DeniseTN: yeah, but so are some of the people who eat at Burger King. Is that any reason to swear of The King and his glorious Whopppers?!?
avitable: Jared and I always say that is the rule of thumb for how you can tell if someone is fucking it up. If the message is not about love - they’re getting it wrong. :-D
Geeky Tai-Tai: I am so imagining you in a choir robe right now…
Wicked H: you’re really big on this whole “not worth my comment” thing lately, aren’t you? ;-)
Manic Witch: *bows demurely, with a little curtsy for effect* :mrgreen:
evilynmo: yeah, we keep it real, we got street cred too, yo. lol
NYC Watchdog: Dawg, I am utterly confused.
Donna: yeah, you just kinda sense it, don’t you? I mean, that if there IS a God, he isn’t running around plotting our demise?
and, of course, Joefish:
I do believe that the Creator is a being beyond our understanding. In fact, that seems to be a stumbling block for a lot of logic based atheists - the idea that there are some things you have to just ‘accept’ even if you don’t really ‘get it’.
However, the analogy of human is to amoeba as Creator is to human seems flawed to me. Humans are not the creator of amoebas. One has no influence or intimate knowledge of the other.
So, rather, it seems that Creator is to human as…
Painter is to masterpiece
Architect is to skyscraper
Chef is to souffle
Or…
Parent is to child
And, is there anything in the world YOUR child could do that would cause you to turn your back on him? Do you not have a burning desire to concern yourself with everything having to do with him?
Even if he grew up and walked out of your life, convinced that you had wronged him as a parent, or that he was better off without you, or that the two of you just couldn’t get along for whatever reason…
would you not sit by your window at night, looking for a sign of his return? Loving him, longing for him, regardless of his own actions?
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Excellent, Britt. If you’d been giving the se3rmons at my church might have continued going. Then again, you wouldn’t have been allowed to give them, being a woman and all.
These people crawl out of the woodwork every single time something bad happens. What gets me is that people can’t consider, after all we know now, that perhaps the biggest mistake the people of Sodom made was building their town next to a volcano.
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The way I figure it is, that if God was trying to punish us he would just wipe us all out. He doesn’t play cat and mouse…… Ya know?
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Joe the Troll makes an excellent point. And, it certainly sounds as if the caller fell asleep during some significant Sunday school classes.
Anyone recall Noah and Ark? A giant flood that wiped out all the “sinners”? So we are to believe that God manipulated one very sad, damaged individual into going on a rampage at a University and killing 32 people because he’s ticked at the rest of us? Hmmm. Yep, that makes excellent sense. And, BOY, isn’t THAT a God we should all fall to our knees and worship right this second. Kiss his rear end now or watch out for the lightening tomorrow, is that the theory?
Joe makes a good point as well. Personally, I don’t go in for the “what God wants” theory. It doesn’t make much sense for us to have “freewill” when some big “bully” (note the quotes, I do NOT believe God is a bully) out in the universe is waiting for us to fuck up so he can banish us to the pits of hell forever.
It doesn’t make sense. What does make sense is that sad, bitter, fire and brimstone theories like that have been used for centuries as means of mass behavior control.
Which, really and truly, is the biggest insult to the true origins of the religion, God, and as Avi pointed out - other religions as well.
In a sense, were the Satan to exist, there are many people out here who are his very best PR and marketing department.
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This could turn into the best conversation I’ve had this month. Or at least the best conversation that didn’t involve PHP. Or sex. Or PHP and sex.
Your analogy is flawed as well. Parent and child is probably the best metaphor for modern religion, but it’s not very accurate. As you know, I am a parent. I am a human and my child is a human. Despite that “created in His image” business, humans are not little Yahwehs. This is evidenced by the fact that you still have not shown me your boobs, no matter how many times I say “so let it be written.”
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Joe the Troll: heh, yes, well if I were allowed to give sermons there may be a lot more drunken whorishness running amuck. And that may not be the best thing either. :twisted:
themuttprincess: yeah, I mean, if we are to believe the bible, it’s not like he doesn’t have that ability, right?
AmyD: see, the problem with Christians referencing the Old Testament is that it’s taken out of context. You can’t talk about the beginning of the timeline only. There was an Old Covenant… but now there is a New one.
If we’re going to just pretend like there is no New Covenant, redemption and forgiveness and all, then you can’t claim to stand on Christian principles.
People who cling to the Old Testament, i believe, are called “Jews”.
(and I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that, I’m just saying they’re spending their weekends in the wrong building, perhaps)
Joefish:
Um, no, the analogy is not flawed. It may not sway you to be a Christian - but AS a Christian, the very core of our beliefs is that Father/Child relationship.
And no, I may not as a child created “in his likeness” have the same power as God - but that doesn’t negate the “likeness” or the Creator/Created relationship. I’m no Webster, but I’m pretty sure “likeness” is not the same as “identical”. Or “equal”.
I mean, shit, there are lots and lots of things that my son cannot do that I can. And even as he grows older, we will ALWAYS have a parent/child dynamic. Always.
At any rate, my problem is not so much with non-Christians not “buying into” that theory.
My problem is with self labeled Christians ignoring it. It’s not a superfluous detail like “should we go to Church on Saturday or Sunday?” or “do we eat meat on Fridays or not?” It’s a basic, a defining characteristic, that can’t be ignored.
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You tickle me. That’s my girlie *insert smug parental pride here*
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I strongly disagree on the parent/child analogy. As I said, it’s the best metaphor for modern religion, but it’s just not accurate. All species produce offspring of the same species, or at least very similar or hybrid species. This just isn’t the case with God and humans.
What continues to mystify me about monotheistic religion is how it describes a being of unimaginable power that transcends time and space and even reality itself and then reduces Him to something essentially human. God angers and envies and desires and loves, just like we do.
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Well, Britt, this was a Catholic church I went to. They already HAVE drunken whorishness. It might be nice to get some FEMALES involved in it for a change! :-)
I agree with Joefish’s last point. I think Jethro Tull said it best, in the liner of the “Aqualung” album….
“In the beginning, man created God, and in his image created he Him.”
People do tend to imbue God with the same character faults they have, such as jealousy and hatred. I guess that makes them less faulty in their own eyes.
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both Joe’s, hmmmm… I’m thinking about this, actually.
I’m not really sure how to respond.
For me, that’s the coolest thing about God. The idea of all the strength and power in all the world, in an eety bity living space. Oops. Shoot. Wrong quote.
Seriously though, that for me is the amazing part. To feel close to someone/something that is so big and yet feel as though you’re connected.
He doesn’t need me. He wants me.
I can’t think of an intelligent, logical way to articulate that.
Although, Joe the Troll, my husband and I were talking about that whole “people make up God because they have to” kind of thing. And I’ve read studies, reports, etc. that indicate that the human brain is wired to have some kind of belief in some kind of Creator. And to me? That is an argument in favor of religion.
I mean, if we’re hard wired to believe in “something”… isn’t it possible there is a REASON for that?
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If you’re going to drop some Aladdin on us, I won’t feel bad about (poorly) quoting Douglas Adams:
Man says to God, “Prove that you exist.”
God replies, “I will not, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.”
Man says, “Aha! Look at the Babelfish, a creature so infinitely improbable and incredibly useful it could not have occurred randomly. The Babelfish proves you exist, therefore by your own reasoning, you do not exist.”
God says, “Oh! I never thought of that” and then vanishes in a puff of logic.
Feeling very satisfied with himself, Man then sets about proving that black is white and promptly gets run over by a truck.
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Personally, I think that all religions have a little bit of truth but none of them have all of it. Unfortunately, there is not a single religion out there that man has not tried to manipulate for his own purpose regardless of intention. Which is why I believe deeply in spirituality and having a relationship with God or the Universe, but not necessarily with all the man-made baggage that religion loves to lay on it.
Joe makes an excellent point - in that by reducing this to the parent/child analogy does imbue God with humanistic traits and flaws that, really and truly, as Creator of the Entire Universe - he doesn’t have.
Now, I know you’ve read the same books I have (ie. Conversations with God) and I believe that this is probably the closest to the truth that anyone has ever really gotten. I believe that everything we do, experience, see, and are - is God, one cannot truly be seperated from the Creator.
When all the crap comes down there really is only one of us and only ONE person in the room. Which is why it is so important to consider in everything we do that what we DO doesn’t just affect “us” we are all connected regardless of religion or race or other origin.
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The theologian debate revolves around the differences between God in the Old Testament, New Testament, and Koran. The Old Testament he is a wrathful and vengeful God who smites those who oppose him or worship false idols. The New Testament he is a warm and loving father who cares for his children. The Koran roles him into a conglomeration of both roles.
This is interesting because Abraham is considered the patriarch of both the Muslim faith (Ishmael) and the Christian faith (Isaac).
It is a contention of Fundamentalist theologians that the God in the Old Testament is the true God, full of wrath, fire, and brimstone. One of the explanations of Conservative theologians for the apparent bi-polar mental illness God exhibits is that the God in the Old Testament may not ACTUALLY be God… but rather the devil in disguise who fooled those in the Old Testament.
So this reminds me of that argument.
Sorry to have confused you.
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Can I just say that I have the coolest, smartest, most respectful readers in the entire blogosphere? Seriously. You guys are so friggin’ awesome.
Ya bunch of heathens. :twisted:
Joe: I can’t decide if that is a joke for or against the existence of God. Apparently I am not bright enough for theological humor. :???:
Amy: I choose to remain oblivious to the fact that there may be something out there that I don’t fully understand. It’s the only way I sleep at night. :mrgreen:
Dawg: Hm. Actually, I had never heard this idea before. (of the Old Testament God being Satan)
Someday I’ll have to give you the Bible according to Britt that I teach my CCD kids. I’m also very careful when we talk about it to give them the entire timeline - beginning to end - so they can keep things in context.
but, ya know, it’s only an hour class - so I paraphrase. :smile:
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Like anything else, there’s more than one interpretation. The interpretation I choose it that it’s all about our own foolishness.
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Joe In your world does Santa Claus not exist either? Because… that’s damn depressing.
:razz:
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This is why I started my own church.
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Of course there’s a Santa! I sit on his lap at Macy’s every year.
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Oh thank… uh… hmmm, wow this is awkward.
Well, thank goodness for that. I guess.
:twisted:
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I’ll bet Santa loves me more than you. :razz:
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Uh, yeah. BK is evil.:roll:
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Joefish: me? foolish? Never! :shock:
AmyD: he’s into the elves more, ya know
avitable: yeah, but you still wanna wear the Catholic Club Jacket. that’s just wierd.
DeniseTN: It is!! And if you don’t believe me I will send you an unphotoshopped picture of my ass.
In the name of science, of course.:mrgreen:
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Britt, I don’t believe you. Will you send me an unphotoshopped picture of your ass?
I like the Catholic jackets. They have lots of wiggle room!
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Oh, fuck yeah! Elves are hot.
I don’t believe that Burger King is evil. Can I see that picture now? So let it be written.
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I agree with you 100% on all points.
Also, what I think; The thing with God is, He gave us free will. What we do with it (like, kill people) is up to us. It’s not God’s doing to kill innocent people to show an example.
It could be the work of Satan, though, sure.
And also, although I feel horrible about the whole thing, God isn’t “punishing me” by killing those students. Do their parents “deserve” that punishment? I mean, I just don’t get Christians who feel like that. Do they mean, God is punishing the USA? Who and what part of the USA? I just think that logic is stupid.
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Holy shit. Did you see how fast Avi and I fell on that one? We’re like sharks.
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Yeah we are. The smell of boo-tay brings us running.
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Huh? Y’all like the smell of ass? Most of us try to avoid that smell.
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That depends. Are we talking about your ass, Denise?
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My ass smells good. At least I assume it does….there aren’t any flies swarmin’ around me and people don’t faint when I walk by. :roll:
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Let’s see what I can find…
Well, this is kinda grainy. Sorry.
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sportfood.ru?
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Hey, I needed Christmas money ok? Back off. I don’t actually own the rights to the picture so legally I am only allowed to link to it.
Don’t judge.
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Ok, ok. I won’t judge. I’ll just sit here and appreciate your hot Russian sportfood ass.
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That’s about how your ass looked when you passed out naked and drunk in the guest room.
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Wow. This comment thread kind of disintegrated towards the end here. :-)
The thing I don’t get is that, if you’re a Christian, you actually are supposed to embrace those you feel are sinful… a la Jesus hanging with tax collectors and prostitutes. It immediately diffuses the logic of God being mad at people for sinning.
The two lines of thought are completely incompatible.
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Well, Britt’s definitely being sinful by showing off her ass, and we will all embrace her, naked ass and all. :twisted:
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I’m a Christian who doesn’t care if it all turns out to be a metaphor only. I’d still be a Christian. Cuz it werks fer me, and I don’t care about the logic part.
But the fundies are exactly the reason people don’t like Christians.
The problem, though, is that saying fundamentalists are why you don’t like Christians is exactly like saying bad spelling is why you don’t like literature.
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RW, I don’t completely agree with that. Saying fundamentalists are why you don’t like Christians is like saying that The New Yorker is why you don’t like literature.
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What if I don’t like fundamentalists or The New Yorker?
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There’s always Mormonism.
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I never thought of that… but by the same token I can like Christopher Hitchens and still not like socialists…
or something like that?
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Or Classic Coke vs. KFC’s original recipe?
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Actually, if I’m to be honest, though, the New Yorker is why I don’t like Christians. Chew that one for a while…
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Well, Christian Slater is why I don’t like New York.
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Well there you go.
Keep working on it though because I used to not like chicken because of Iowa but I’m all hunky dory about it ever since Colonel Harlan Sanders. He’s why I like chicken now! Except salt is why I don’t like Iowa… but that’s a long story…
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Colonel Sanders is why I’m chicken about the Army, and why I dislike the USS Iowa.
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Here’s my Iowa story… But I lied… it’s actually WAL-MART that makes me not like Iowa.
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Well, Wal-mart makes me not like most Christians, so we’ve kinda come full circle now.
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How can you people hate Iowa as long as I’m here??
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oops…
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Anytime something like this happens you always have those wackjobs who claim God was in charge because of this or that. Sometimes I wonder if the world would be a better place WITHOUT religion.
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Times like this I wish I wouldn’t have gone to catholic school for 13 years.
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One of the many reason why I’m no longer Christian. I made up my own religion. Actually Boy George created it, but the only thing we do these days is calling the police to report robberies while piles of coke sit out in the open.
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I think most peoples problems are that they are preached to for their entire life and they don’t bother to form their own opinions about things. Religion is a lot like media, you have to think about what you’re hearing and make up your own mind about whether or not its a moral thing to believe.
You have really good points and I agree with you. I think the ultimate punishment would be life, because of all the bad crap in it. But it’s also the ultimate gift, I guess its in the way you look at it.
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